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13 hours ago by Animats

The first one is always free. Here's the actual pricing.[1]

There's a free tier limited to 5,000 events/month. The "Deploy" tier is $5,389.20 per project/year, plus event charges, plus a "connectivity assurance" charge.

Still, you could get a lot done with the free tier if you didn't overdo the traffic. Every half hour, "Soda machine #5621, no alarms, outside temp 82F, inside temp 36F, cash $75.25, stock level for Diet Pepsi 4, stock level for Sprite 50..."

[1] https://blues.io/services/

12 hours ago by rozzie

Yes, if you use our Notehub there is a free tier, and higher tiers are still very reasonable. (It does cost money to run infrastructure.)

That said, although we don't talk much about it, the HN crowd may be interested in knowing that this exists: https://github.com/blues/note

If you want to use the Notecard and you like Golang, you can spin up your own server and switch the notecard to speak with it via the "host" field in this JSON request: https://dev.blues.io/reference/notecard-api/hub-requests/#hu...

12 hours ago by EvanAnderson

I know "meta" is discouraged on HN but I absolutely love that I can participate in a forum where Ray Ozzie replies to a comment made by John Nagle.

10 hours ago by kbenson

I think it's not so much that meta is discouraged as much as knee-jerk emotional meta reactions are, because they rarely lead to useful discussion. Complaining about downvotes or that you think the mods are being unfair are ultimately selfish actions most the time that drag the rest of the discussion down. At the same time, people sharing some of their favorite "HN discussion brought amazing person to the fore that shared" moments and links to them has allowed me and others to revisit and share in those moments and learn some of those amazing things shared even though we weren't part of that discussion.

10 hours ago by oliwarner

"That's all you pay", says the website.

That seem significantly inaccurate if the deploy cost could be over 100× the headline "that's all you pay" figure.

12 hours ago by ourcat

I see there's a board for an ESP-32 Huzzah Feather devkit, which can run a web server too. Interesting.

Also interesting is no need for 'KYC'.

11 hours ago by samstave

So.... if you were to connect this free board to something, such that it provided GPS coords in each message (whats max msg length? It would seem that you can do ~6 messages per hour, every hour, for the month - for free?

Is this correct?

So I can make a GPS child tracker for my kids backpacks - and it would just cost the $50 -- EDIT, ah for 10 years.

This is wonderful.

We attempted to negotiate this in 2007 after leaving Lockheeds RFID division, and nobody would touch it :-( for our sensors.

9 hours ago by rozzie

Yep, your scenario works and it's completely possible and plausible.

Messages are extremely small and efficient OTA (highly optimized and compressed).

The API is JSON and messages are your own unconstrained JSON object, but they're transmitted as compressed binary. (You can also have a binary payload 'attachment' to a JSON message if you so choose.)

Although everything works fine if the messages are individually in the KB's, that's not the design center because of how we manage memory on our (STM32L4R5) MCU.

Things work most efficiently when the app uses lots of small messages. We buffer them in flash, and power-on the modem at user-settable intervals (or conditions) for upload.

10 hours ago by chris1993

Why is it desirable to track the kids backpacks? Are they so very untidy that they often get lost?

23 minutes ago by gspr

Your raising of your own children is none of my business, but I'm curious: how do you think that being raised while constantly tracked affects the child later on in life?

My personal armchair worry is that it makes them likely to accept a dystopian surveillance society without even considering that it might be problematic.

11 hours ago by rlonn

I've also thought about building a GPS child tracker, as I haven't found any reasonable/good existing options out there. Tell me if you need any assistance. I am a semi-incompetent full stack developer with IoT experience, reachable at hello at pushdata. io

12 hours ago by jxf

This doesn't look misleading to me. 5,000 events per month is very reasonable for a hobbyist project and the Prototype free tier is pretty generous as things go.

9 hours ago by topspin

One message every 8.something minutes. Very useful for an 'asset' tracker.

8 hours ago by 1024core

You could reduce the frequency by using an accelerometer to skip updates if there's no motion, and increase frequency if there is, thereby staying below the 5K limit.

7 hours ago by SavantIdiot

I like the free tier, it satisfies lots of gadgets' requirements:

Door lock.

Window shade.

Light switch.

Washing machine.

BBQ.

Pet feeder.

Sprinklers.

...or as we saw a few days ago: desk raiser/lowerer.

5 hours ago by tyingq

I'm not clear if I get another 5,000 events/month for each $49 device I buy, or if 5k/month is the ceiling for a single person/entity.

12 hours ago by matt2000

Is that pricing for an additional service that is optional, or is it required to operate the card? I'm confused.

12 hours ago by rozzie

See above. It's not required to use the Notecard, but it's extremely easy to use and convenient. The combination of the Notecard and the Notehub are essentially a simple JSON-centric "data pump", with a good deal of carrier data included.

We've priced it so we can make an "infrastructure-appropriate" profit on a sustainable basis; there's no 'surprise' business model and your data and your devices are yours, not ours.

12 hours ago by asah

same here - "Prototype" ($0/mon) looks like what most hobbyists would use who exceed 5K/mon:

https://blues.io/services/

12 hours ago by bityard

Tangentially related: I set up a security camera based on Raspberry Pi in an area with no wifi. It sends notifications and pictures to my phone when any motion is detected. From T-Mobile, the hotspot was free and the data plan is $5 a month. The data plan only has a few hundred meg of "fast" data but unlimited 128k/sec after that. Which is perfectly fine since the images it sends are usually around 100k each. It's been working great for months.

A rare trifecta of cheap, easy, and good. (Although it did take a weekend to build and test.)

an hour ago by chime

How do you power it?

7 hours ago by SavantIdiot

Great idea! I've always wanted to set one of these up to catch the illegal dumpers who leave truckloads of crap on the forest road I live on.

Did you use the app "motion" with a post-hook?

12 hours ago by walterbell

Thanks for the pointer, could you share a link or search term for this plan?

12 hours ago by myelin

I see the $5/month plan here: https://www.t-mobile.com/cell-phone-plans/affordable-data-pl...

Their hotspot page shows two which are free with a 5GB plan, but I can't find a deal which makes them free with the 512MB one though.

11 hours ago by matttrotter

Nice!! You could spend $49 on this, and after 500 MB (~5000 pictures?), just buy another one and replace it!

Have any project pages? GitHub? website? etc?

12 hours ago by __sy__

This is very interesting. I'll provide a hot take since Seam (YC S20, i.e. the company I work for) could be a target customer for this for our on-prem multi-protocol hub. There are a number of use-cases that need a cellular back-up connection.

1. The data cost of most cellular solutions out there does eliminate a number of interesting use-cases that just don't have the margins/unit-economics to swallow $10/mon of data cost. For Seam, we're currently looking at Twilio and Skywire. If this is in fact 10X cheaper, I'd want to dig into why. This may be an unpopular & contrarian opinion, but so far my take is that regular carrier networks are pretty good at what they do (network ops, real-estate placement...etc)[1]. Competing with them on pricing probably implies some important trade-offs.

2. The provisioning of a cellular modem is a bit of a PITA. AT commands can vary for each modem and makes the process a bit daunting. But if you're making a lot of units of your product like us, it's really not that big of a deal.

3. The PCI connector is interesting. I think the form factor is what makes it a non-option for Seam's Hub, mostly because it's not something we can easily plug into an existing custom PCBA. But starting with the hobbyist market, or low-scale production devices [2], is probably a good idea. They can later work their way toward modules the way most LTE modems are sort of sold today.

[1] If i am wrong, please let me know. I am genuinely curious to know where areas of operation improvements could exist in the current U.S. carrier market.

[2] This is the market that OTA as a service folks are targeting. It's much bigger than one would initially think. Example of companies in this space include Esper, Balena...etc

12 hours ago by rozzie

There are no tricks to the Notecard's pricing. The 500MB/10-years of data is embedded within the hardware pricing, which is $49 for North America and $59 for 135+ countries.

What's more, it's "permanent roaming" and you don't need to identify the end-user of the device. It can be used anonymously.

12 hours ago by __sy__

Welp, first, thank you for taking the time to respond here. My mom won't believe it when I tell her that THE Ray Ozzie responded to my random HN comment :)

Second, could you comment a bit on the latency/bandwidth of your solution? I was poking around the site and couldn't find that answer immediately available.

9 hours ago by rozzie

Happy to comment. We've been working on this for several years now and we're super proud of what we see people building and deploying.

The question is a bit general, so let me just give you some related facts.

- Because more than half our customers use this in a battery-powered way (such as a tracker), the normal operating mode (json-configured) is "normally quiescent" (~8uA draw) with the modem powered off completely. You program the sync period and can also kick off syncs manually, for example if you sense an urgent condition.

- In this "periodic mode", syncs are usually take about 15 seconds to register, 1 or 2 seconds to sync, and then hanguup. If you configure for TLS it sends about 4KB for the TLS session setup, and if you don't care about on-wire encryption you can use straight TCP at about 1KB. A half dozen reasonably-sized JSON notes compresses to about 250-500 bytes on the wire.

- Many customers don't use it battery-powered - such as embedding it inside an air handler or generator, etc. When in this mode, you can configure (JSON) it to be connected in a "continuous" mode. Not much downside - just a 1 packet (40 byte TCP header + 1 byte) for a ping every 20m for robustness.

When in continuous mode you get "instant sync" upstream, and get a bonus feature: If you use an HTTPS (JSON) API to send an inbound message to the device, it syncs instantly to the device.

- Our packets are so tiny that nobody ever thinks about actual modem bandwidth. However, you'll notice it when you're using it for firmware update. (We support DFU of modem, of our firmware, and of your own host MCU's firmware.)

We have 2 primary SKUs for the product: our "Narrowband" SKUs based on BG95 which support three RATS: LTE Cat-M1 (~375Kbps), LTE Cat-NB1 (~64Kbps), and GSM (~100Kbps).

For $10 more you can buy our "Wideband" SKUs based on EG91 which supports LTE Cat-1 4G/LTE, 3G, and GSM. These go up to 10Mbps.

Hope you find this interesting.

12 hours ago by ohazi

It's an M.2 key E connector, not a PCI connector, but it doesn't follow the M.2 standard -- they're just reusing a cheaply available connector. The microcontroller they're using doesn't support PCIe, so it's probably just power, some serial interfaces, and maybe some boot/reset/interrupt pins.

As such, you should have far less of an issue integrating this onto a custom board than a real M.2 card that uses PCIe or USB.

12 hours ago by seam

ah very interesting. Thank You for the correction! I quickly saw what looked like pci and some GPIO options.

11 hours ago by SV_BubbleTime

Looks like you communicate through that header over I2C, USB, or “serial”… which I am not sure if they mean SPI or UART/USART (or yes).

3 hours ago by Causality1

I'm somewhat sceptical the cellular hardware in question will be functional for ten years. The 3G sunset is killing quite recent devices. Will 4G be around for another decade?

13 hours ago by devmor

I feel like with the sheer amount of IoT options available, using hardware that's vendor-locked to a cloud service is a risky move.

Why would I choose this over existing solutions in which I can use any MNO or MVNO I want by swapping the SIM?

12 hours ago by rozzie

I believe the greatest unrealized potential is for product manufacturers to embed cloud connectivity without the end-user needing to do anything to get it working.

The Kindle Whispernet model is my ideal, where you make an up-front decision to buy a cell-enabled product and it just works.

The classic model of monthly charging, activation, deactivation, etc used by the likes of the Apple Watch are not good for IoT because then someone needs to - ensure that your device is certified on a carrier, or get it ptcrb certified - sign up for a carrier contract - acquire/activate the sim - pay a monthly fee per-device (and sometimes also per-fleet) - figure out how to not needlessly pay when devices are broken or end-of-life - and so on.

Of course, if you want to just use the Notecard with your own SIM, you can. The Notecard and all the standard Notecarriers have an external SIM slot (usually used when someone wants to use it in a non-covered country such as China).

40 minutes ago by bpye

I'm curious, the list of not-included countries is largely unsurprising however what makes South Korea difficult?

6 hours ago by sangnoir

> I believe the greatest unrealized potential is for product manufacturers to embed cloud connectivity without the end-user needing to do anything to get it working.

I feel like this is a double-edged sword for consumer products. Right now, I can keep my smart TV 'dumb' by not connecting it to my WiFi. I have reservations about a TV that has a GPS antenna (for my Zip code) and has its own pipe to the internet that I have no control over.

5 hours ago by dreamcompiler

I'm hoping there will be an active Youtube community for "How to disable your TV's 5g" for whatever model of TV you have.

Or maybe just covering the entire back of the TV with foil tape would do the trick in most cases.

10 hours ago by sumtechguy

Whispernet only 'worked' because of the pricing structure they had with their MDN, the amount of books they were selling with it, and trying to break into the market and willing to eat some cost to do so. Also notice they retired it. That means it was not working pricewise.

To put it this way lets say the ODM makes a device for 40 bucks and sells it to you for 50. Their cost to their MDN/carrier is say 1 dollar per month per device. That means at best they can float you for is 10 months before you start costing them money. That does not involve any other services they may have to pay for to make that connection happen (support, VMs/machines, phone lines, datalines, buildings, etc). But if there is an extra ARPU on each unit that time to cost you money is much longer and in some cases never happen.

They way they priced this it looks like they are trying to get people into the ecosystem and are willing to eat some cost on that. Hoping to get a few whale accounts to cover the 'free' bits.

> ensure that your device is certified on a carrier, or get it ptcrb certified - sign up for a carrier contract - acquire/activate the sim - pay a monthly fee per-device (and sometimes also per-fleet) - figure out how to not needlessly pay when devices are broken or end-of-life - and so on

That is exactly what MDNs like this do. They do that carrier abstraction for you. They do however charge for it. Each of the big carriers also do this and have programs for it. They have a list of pre-certified devices and 'try before you buy' style programs.

8 hours ago by rozzie

I was using Whispernet as an example of a great user experience; that's all.

There are no tricks and our prepaid/embedded pricing is real, and we will never sell anything for a loss. We're selling commercial IoT and our business must be sustainable. (Free tier of Notehub is an acquisition cost and that cost is extremely low.)

9 hours ago by majormajor

> Whispernet only 'worked' because of the pricing structure they had with their MDN, the amount of books they were selling with it, and trying to break into the market and willing to eat some cost to do so. Also notice they retired it. That means it was not working pricewise.

3G Whispernet couldn't outlast the carriers getting rid of the hardware to support those frequencies. So yes, that means "forever" didn't work price-wise, in that Amazon didn't feel it was worthwhile to build their own outdated-tech cell network just to continue it, but it was still a reasonable "for most of the life of the device" offer - note that newer devices have 4g and still will work.

11 hours ago by altantiprocrast

> hardware that's vendor-locked to a cloud service is a risky move.

AFAIK from an above comment by @rozzie the protocol is open and the domain can be changed. So it should be possible for someone to write a self hostable server

https://dev.blues.io/reference/notecard-api/hub-requests/#hu... https://github.com/blues/note

11 hours ago by undefined

[deleted]

11 hours ago by mikepurvis

Depending on where/how you're deploying this, "swapping the SIM" may be non-trivial. I could definitely see cases where it would be desirable to have someone else take ownership of the whole data pipeline, keeping the radio firmware up to date, whatever.

Though yeah, definitely you and your investors need to have enough confidence in this venture to want to hitch your train to it.

6 hours ago by floatboth

I kinda hate the "we give you a microcontroller that you can't program, only talk to it using some protocol" model. It just feels wrong, having to add an external one just for the application code. And here the protocol is even tied to a particular web API on the other side (looks like you can change the URL to your own instance but it's still all tightly coupled to the shape of the API).

2 hours ago by abraae

I can understand why it's locked down. But I wish (selfishly) they had added some very basic inbuilt IO. Myself I would want 1or 2 gpio pound and in particular a couple of ADCs to measure 4-20mA sensors.

5 hours ago by atonse

Depends on the market. If I wanted to tinker I wouldn’t buy this. If I wanted to build a white labeled product quickly without having to even think about sourcing hardware and worrying about updating their firmware etc, this would be extremely attractive as it brings the time to market way down.

There are other platforms like this.

5 hours ago by cupcake-unicorn

"For early adopters and evaluation" - does that mean this is a limited time deal for now?

4 hours ago by adolph

Some interesting projects using this are documented here:

https://www.hackster.io/blues-wireless

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